I'm a Nice Guy, why don't I get any?
Oct. 25th, 2009 05:02 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jtniehofSo much for real post "in a day or two." It looks like these will happen when I can carve out some time from the thesis, and be on whatever topic has come up lately (or whatever has pissed me off lately.) Please recall the ground rules.
Lots of genuinely nice, caring people have difficulty finding healthy, lasting relationships, and bitterness happens. But there's a very important difference between nice guy, adjective noun, and Nice Guy, registered trademark. The problem is, they know they're the Good Guys: 100% certified Nice Guy, right there on the label, just trust me! A good solid jolt of empathy can get a Nice Guy to start actually evaluating his actions and their effect on people rather than relying on self-proclaimed Niceness. Recovering Nice Guys should keep this in mind.
Bringing the "I'm a Nice Guy" complaint into feminist discussions highlights its self-centered, arrogant entitlement which deserves such strong antipathy. "Feminism is all well and fine, but it doesn't seem to be helping me get a girlfriend." This isn't really women's problem. It's not even a societal problem. (I rather like the description: "So a bunch of guys we won't date disapprove of our choice of boyfriend? This is a surprise? And it's our problem how?")
Digging a little deeper, there's the implication (often cited as this statement's worst aspect) that somehow Nice Guys are owed sex; they deserve it. If you're a decent human being and don't kick puppies, sex will come your way. There's another fallacy here, the notion of "sex" as this ethereal thing separated from an individual's personal sexuality, that crops up again and again and I'll probably rant about later.
If the magic behaviour doesn't necessarily deserve sex, maybe it's the right set of words, the right actions, that can manipulate somebody into it. Say nice things, help her out, "Diamonds: she'll pretty much have to". Here the disconnect becomes obvious: don't genuine nice guys do the Right Thing because, well, it's the Right Thing? If you complain that doing the Right Thing doesn't get you laid...what's the real motivation? Being Nice and True and Good and Right, or earning sex?
"But that's not what I meant!" Maybe not. The Nice Guy complaint still implies all of the above. It also can reveal uncomfortable motivations that previously lay hidden...maybe you're saying more of what you mean that you first thought.
The above is a bit blunt, although nothing on what a Nice Guy might face by being a true idiot in a feminist community that's tired of idiots. "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" he cries in pain and loneliness. But horse manure catches more than both put together. Sometimes, only straight talking gets the point across, even if it bruises the ego. Boorish behaviour needs to be labelled Unacceptable.
This is just one example of the Tone Argument, for which I had an absolutely fantastic link that I can no longer find. So what you get are the merely good links from Derailing for Dummies and There Aren't Enough Spoons on the Planet (race-related, but transferrable).
Although I kvetched above that women and feminists aren't obligated to care about guys getting dates, being a recovering Nice Guy myself I do have some interest in the issue. I'll be taking more of a geek tack on it, since that's my experience. If you read and grappled with the above, consider this your cookie.
Occasionally the issue is reduced to "geeks lack confidence" and the answer is "go out there and ask!", citing Neil Strauss' The Game. One way this ends is with the Nice Guy making a few assholish pickup attempts and really reinforcing women's aversion to Nice Guys(tm). (I resemble this statement.) Good time to go read this post.
I haven't read The Game. I've read some other PUA stuff and it's pretty creepy and entitled and manipulative. Most of what I read was how to send certain signals and manipulate women into bed, the body language equivalent of lying through your teeth. There's nothing wrong with learning how to communicate through subtext, body position, eye contact, etc., and the average geek could use some help. This is probably why the PUAs get recommendations, even though they lean towards get-laid-checklists.
Geeks often "check out" of social interaction somewhere around high school, where relationships of all sorts are pretty poisonous and petty. Unfortunately they're like that because everyone's still working out how to communicate and get along in a society, and the geek who tunes back in once things are less destructive has lost an awful lot of chance to try, fail, and learn. See cracked.com's 7 Reasons the 21st Century is Making You Miserable and the Geek Social Fallacies.
The essential solution is to stop trying to "hire for the girlfriend position". Instead get out, connect with people in general, learn about the signals you're sending, and deal with failure. That means dealing with the realization that failure will hurt others, not just yourself. They're adults; they'll get over it. Dan Savage made a comment once that "all desired advances come from non-assholes; all undesired advances come from assholes."
To minimize the asshole quotient, check out A guy's guide to approaching strange women without being maced, also Don't Be That Guy (and links therein). There's a survey on What do Women Want? based on OKCupid responses. The headline's oversimplified and manipulation-oriented, but there's some understanding to be dug out of the article.
Doormatitis has a disturbing implication. The Nice Guy seeking a relationship with a woman promotes how much he cares for her, finds her attractive, etc. while downplaying his own worth. He basically advertises "I'm bringing nothing to this relationship except my doting." Worse, he implies that someone who will "treat her right" is unexpected and unique, rather than a minimum acceptable standard. Yipes.
Genuine confidence and empathy are the ticket, not asshole superiority or Nice Guy declarations.
Lots of genuinely nice, caring people have difficulty finding healthy, lasting relationships, and bitterness happens. But there's a very important difference between nice guy, adjective noun, and Nice Guy, registered trademark. The problem is, they know they're the Good Guys: 100% certified Nice Guy, right there on the label, just trust me! A good solid jolt of empathy can get a Nice Guy to start actually evaluating his actions and their effect on people rather than relying on self-proclaimed Niceness. Recovering Nice Guys should keep this in mind.
Bringing the "I'm a Nice Guy" complaint into feminist discussions highlights its self-centered, arrogant entitlement which deserves such strong antipathy. "Feminism is all well and fine, but it doesn't seem to be helping me get a girlfriend." This isn't really women's problem. It's not even a societal problem. (I rather like the description: "So a bunch of guys we won't date disapprove of our choice of boyfriend? This is a surprise? And it's our problem how?")
Digging a little deeper, there's the implication (often cited as this statement's worst aspect) that somehow Nice Guys are owed sex; they deserve it. If you're a decent human being and don't kick puppies, sex will come your way. There's another fallacy here, the notion of "sex" as this ethereal thing separated from an individual's personal sexuality, that crops up again and again and I'll probably rant about later.
If the magic behaviour doesn't necessarily deserve sex, maybe it's the right set of words, the right actions, that can manipulate somebody into it. Say nice things, help her out, "Diamonds: she'll pretty much have to". Here the disconnect becomes obvious: don't genuine nice guys do the Right Thing because, well, it's the Right Thing? If you complain that doing the Right Thing doesn't get you laid...what's the real motivation? Being Nice and True and Good and Right, or earning sex?
"But that's not what I meant!" Maybe not. The Nice Guy complaint still implies all of the above. It also can reveal uncomfortable motivations that previously lay hidden...maybe you're saying more of what you mean that you first thought.
The above is a bit blunt, although nothing on what a Nice Guy might face by being a true idiot in a feminist community that's tired of idiots. "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" he cries in pain and loneliness. But horse manure catches more than both put together. Sometimes, only straight talking gets the point across, even if it bruises the ego. Boorish behaviour needs to be labelled Unacceptable.
This is just one example of the Tone Argument, for which I had an absolutely fantastic link that I can no longer find. So what you get are the merely good links from Derailing for Dummies and There Aren't Enough Spoons on the Planet (race-related, but transferrable).
Although I kvetched above that women and feminists aren't obligated to care about guys getting dates, being a recovering Nice Guy myself I do have some interest in the issue. I'll be taking more of a geek tack on it, since that's my experience. If you read and grappled with the above, consider this your cookie.
Occasionally the issue is reduced to "geeks lack confidence" and the answer is "go out there and ask!", citing Neil Strauss' The Game. One way this ends is with the Nice Guy making a few assholish pickup attempts and really reinforcing women's aversion to Nice Guys(tm). (I resemble this statement.) Good time to go read this post.
I haven't read The Game. I've read some other PUA stuff and it's pretty creepy and entitled and manipulative. Most of what I read was how to send certain signals and manipulate women into bed, the body language equivalent of lying through your teeth. There's nothing wrong with learning how to communicate through subtext, body position, eye contact, etc., and the average geek could use some help. This is probably why the PUAs get recommendations, even though they lean towards get-laid-checklists.
Geeks often "check out" of social interaction somewhere around high school, where relationships of all sorts are pretty poisonous and petty. Unfortunately they're like that because everyone's still working out how to communicate and get along in a society, and the geek who tunes back in once things are less destructive has lost an awful lot of chance to try, fail, and learn. See cracked.com's 7 Reasons the 21st Century is Making You Miserable and the Geek Social Fallacies.
The essential solution is to stop trying to "hire for the girlfriend position". Instead get out, connect with people in general, learn about the signals you're sending, and deal with failure. That means dealing with the realization that failure will hurt others, not just yourself. They're adults; they'll get over it. Dan Savage made a comment once that "all desired advances come from non-assholes; all undesired advances come from assholes."
To minimize the asshole quotient, check out A guy's guide to approaching strange women without being maced, also Don't Be That Guy (and links therein). There's a survey on What do Women Want? based on OKCupid responses. The headline's oversimplified and manipulation-oriented, but there's some understanding to be dug out of the article.
Doormatitis has a disturbing implication. The Nice Guy seeking a relationship with a woman promotes how much he cares for her, finds her attractive, etc. while downplaying his own worth. He basically advertises "I'm bringing nothing to this relationship except my doting." Worse, he implies that someone who will "treat her right" is unexpected and unique, rather than a minimum acceptable standard. Yipes.
Genuine confidence and empathy are the ticket, not asshole superiority or Nice Guy declarations.